Comments on Transhumanist Blogs on Religion and Spirituality

btw, I really appreciate your challenges.

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 06:29:07 -0700

btw, I really appreciate your challenges.

Joseph says "I'm sorry, but this is just gibberish...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Fri, 27 Aug 2010 06:22:26 -0700

Joseph says "I'm sorry, but this is just gibberish."

And I hope this is because you did not try hard in school,. and not a Congenital issue :) Christian Transhumanism is like one of those pictures that you have to stare at for a while to see the hidden meaning. If you can't see the truth in it, don't worry, think of it like being colorblind. Those folks get along pretty well in life...just kidding. THIS IS SERIOUS dammit.

I will help you make the connection; It is Christian because it shows a world created by the Son of Man through word..you know, like it says in the gospel of John;
"In the beginning was the Word, etc. The first fourteen verses are introductory. In order to set at rest all controversy the Divine nature of Jesus, John glances, in the first three verses, back to the beginning, recorded in Genesis, and affirms: (1) That he who was afterwards manifest as the Christ existed before creation began; (2) that he was present with God; (3) that he was divine; (4) that he was the Word; (5) that by or through him were all things made that were made (Joh 1:3). The first chapter of Genesis helps us to understand its meaning. God said, Let there be light (Ge 1:3), Let there be a firmament (Ge 1:6), Let the earth bring forth (Ge 1:11), etc. and it was done. God exhibits his creative power through the Word, and manifests his will through the Word. God creates and speaks to man through the Word (try to make the connection here Joseph, make that information, make that Digital Physics, Joseph). As we clothe our thoughts in words, so God reveals his will by the Word, and when the Word is clothed in flesh, as the Teacher of men, we recognize it as Jesus Christ."

It is Christian because it shows a savior, and a way to salvation and eternal life. In the new testament, Ephesians 10 which speaks of all things in heaven and earth being gathered up in Christ." "It means that the development which was broken in Adam is resumed by Christ and fulfilled in him. In Christ the new mankind has started. That which mankind was to become... However, not only mankind but the whole cosmos finds its fulfillment in Christ." Paul Tillich calls this idea "The profound doctrine of a transcendent humanism, a humanism which says that Christ is the fulfillment of essential man, of the Adamic nature." "And we can become fully human through participation in this full humanity which has appeared in Christ. This includes eternal life, and similitude with God with respect to participation in infinity."

It is Transhumanist because; " Transhumanism is an international intellectual and cultural movement supporting the use of science and technology to improve human mental and physical characteristics and capacities. The movement regards aspects of the human condition, such as disability, suffering, disease, aging, and involuntary death as unnecessary and undesirable".

And it is Christian Transhumanisim because it provides coherence in an otherwise chaotic world caused by willful ignorance. That is the human imperfection you are talking about. The remedy is coherence through a little love and understanding using any ethical method available to us... GOD BLESS THE TRANSHUMANISTS!

I've concluded that Virtualization of the univers...

Particleion at cosmistmanifesto.blogspot.com — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:46:52 -0700

I've concluded that Virtualization of the universe is going to happen to some degree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnntcdNnfmc

There is a great deal of important stuff in this t...

BillHall at cosmistmanifesto.blogspot.com — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:48:22 -0700

There is a great deal of important stuff in this topic that I am working through in my own publishing efforts. I suggest you refer to such works as Karl Popper's Objective Knowledge, An Evolutionary Approach and Maturana and Varela's Autopoiesis and Cognition.

Again, if you want to produce a reasoned work rather than a personal polemic, you need references to other work in the real world.

Regards,

Bill

From the reviews I can find, the book sounds like ...

BillHall at cosmistmanifesto.blogspot.com — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:43:49 -0700

From the reviews I can find, the book sounds like real psychobabble. It would be very interesting if some of the psi functions actually existed, but to me as a scientist, the evidence is no stronger than for the kinds of miracles believed in by other kinds of fundamentalists.

If you want your "manifesto" to be something more than a personal diatribe, I strongly suggest that you stay away from this kind of woolly credulism.

Regards,

Bill

I don't know about a "simulation", but if Lee Smol...

BillHall at cosmistmanifesto.blogspot.com — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:30:41 -0700

I don't know about a "simulation", but if Lee Smolin's ideas about loop quantum gravity and spin networks (as popularized in his 2004 Scientific American article are correct, our existence is the result of a continuing computation below the quantum level. This has some very interesting implications where time and free will are concerned. This is something I am working on.

Regards,

Bill

Re "no references", I think this is a mistake. Thi...

BillHall at cosmistmanifesto.blogspot.com — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:23:02 -0700

Re "no references", I think this is a mistake. This leaves your arguments without external support. Interestingly, you have chosen a medium where you can easily hyperlink to supporting material without being too obtrusive about it.

Unfortunately, I tend to treat such unsupported essays as personal diatribes rather than reasoned and rational arguments.

Also, rather than working in Blogger's relatively primitive framework, I suggest that you try Google Sites - http://sites.google.com that offers a much more interesting set of possibilities for structured thinking. Check out https://sites.google.com/site/organizingcommunityaction/ for a few examples of how it can be used.

Regards,

Bill

I'm sorry, but this is just gibberish. It's neithe...

Joseph at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:52:11 -0700

I'm sorry, but this is just gibberish. It's neither Christian nor Transhumanist. Nowhere do you come close to attempting to present "a defense of the reality of contemporary Christianity".

You know, the Christianity that states that the Universe and life (specifically humanity) required a god to be created, that humanity is somehow inherently flawed and required the redemptive power of Jesus' death to atone for, that there are somehow rules by which we are expected to live by that govern the minutiae of not only our actions but our thoughts, disobeying which is grounds for some supernatural remnant of our personality and memory to exist in eternal torment after our physical bodies are dead. Let's forget about the talking serpent and Noah's ark; you don't even seem to be able to acknowledge the very necessity of a Savior, and the consequences for failing to acknowledge him.

Perhaps I'm not living on as lofty a philosophical plane as you, but that's what 99.99% of the believing Christians on this planet believe, and if you're going to posit Christianity as a system that can viably be connected to Transhumanism, you're going to need to defend that ideological underpinning before you start talking about Genesis somehow being a metaphor for entropy, or whatever the hell you're saying.

I'm beginning to think this is just a spoof, and if so, well played, sir. I fell into the trap. If not, your Christianity is so unique as to be singular, and probably deserving of a label all its own, so as not to be confused with the Christianity that's practiced by 2+ billion people on this planet.

Check my next blog post Joseph. I had to include a...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:56:17 -0700

Check my next blog post Joseph. I had to include a graphic file. Thanks for the challenge!

All you seem to be doing is redefining terms. Band...

Joseph at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:53:55 -0700

All you seem to be doing is redefining terms. Bandwidth = the Grail. Jesus = Simulation Programmer. And none of your redefinitions seems to proceed from a convincing argument.

And what "infinite continuum of life" are you talking about?

Please, try to make your case without throwing out a cascade of ill-defined terms.

Start with a defense of the reality of contemporary Christianity. Because if you're trying to convince that majority of Transhumanists who are Atheists or Agnostics, that's the first hurdle you'll need to overcome. And thusfar, I see no reason to put any more credence in your Christianity than I do in classical Roman paganism.

Thanks Samantha (really) for your time and conside...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:26:44 -0700

Thanks Samantha (really) for your time and consideration. It is funny that you call this topic shallow :) I can take this deeper. I don't think you have been able to put together Logos and Digital Physics. SCIENCE IS SAYING MATTER IS A MTYH. They are saying it is mystical in a sense that it is derived from an external reality. The award winning scientist John Archibald Wheeler has this to say about our deepest level of reality ; " It is not unreasonable to imagine that information sits at the core of physics, just as it sits at the core of a computer. It from bit. —every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself—derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely from answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. 'It from bit' symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom—an immaterial source.
Now, Have you heard of Max Tegmark at the Dept. of Physics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology? In order for science to continue on in physics he explores the physics implications of the External Reality Hypothesis (ERH) that there exists an external physical reality completely independent of us humans. And he argues that with a sufficiently broad definition of mathematics, it implies the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis (MUH) that our physical world is an abstract mathematical structure. Get that? Absract.
Here is more on external realities; Have you heard of Oxford Philosopher Nick Bostrom and his simulation argument? Here is what he says about the theological implications of a posthuman creator; "the posthumans running a simulation are like gods in relation to the people inhabiting the simulation: the posthumans created the world we see; they are of superior intelligence; they are ‘omnipotent’ in the sense that they can interfere in the workings of our world even in ways that violate its physical laws; and they are ‘omniscient’ in the sense that they can monitor everything that happens. "
More on external realities and logos/information based realities From Eric Steinhart "For the idea that our universe is a software process running on some deeper computational substrate, see Hans Moravec, Mind Children: The Future of Robot and Human Intelligence (Cambridge MA: Harvard University Press, 1988); Frank Tipler, The Physics of Immortality (New York: Anchor, 1995); Ed Fredkin, ‘An Introduction to Digital Philosophy,’ International Journal of Theoretical Physics 42 (2003): 189–247. We already have computers that approximately simulate our whole universe. For example, the Millennium Simulation simulated the evolution of our whole universe from the Big Bang to the far future at the level of galactic detail. See V. Springel, et al., ‘Simulations of the Formation, Evolution and Clustering of Galaxies and Quasars,’ Nature 435 (2005): 629–636. It is easy to imagine more precise simulations – simulations that run our whole universe at the level of stars; molecules; atoms; particles. Many writers have argued that our universe is only finitely complex. See Ed Fredkin, ‘Digital Mechanics: An Informational Process Based on Reversible Universal Cellular Automata,’ in: H. Gutowitz, (ed.) Cellular Automata: Theory and Experiment (Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 1991): 254–270; David Finkelstein, ‘Finite Physics,’ in: R. Herken (ed.) The Universal Turing Machine: A Half-Century Survey (New York: Springer-Verlag, 1995): 323–347; Anton Zeilinger, ‘A Foundational Principle for Quantum Mechanics,’ Foundations of Physics 29 (1999): 631–643. Specifically, Lloyd calculates that our universe so far has run only 10120 operations involving 10120 bits. See Seth Lloyd, ‘Computational Capacity of the Universe,’ Physical Review Letters 88 (2002): 237901–5. These are finite numbers. If our universe is only finitely complex, then it can easily be running as a virtual machine on some deeper computer."
The bible chronicles how we are awakening to this idea. And Christian Transhumanism is about how we will implement the idea.

James, the concept of Logos is pure mysticism. Th...

samantha at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:08:03 -0700

James, the concept of Logos is pure mysticism. That you got your mysticism right doesn't say that there is any truth to it at all. It is a closed system asserting these things. To say Christ is the same as reason and wisdom is pretty strange given the many many examples of great reasoning and wisdom that are not from Christians. It is empty dogma. Quoting tho Gospels, when you know if you are a scholar that the entire Bible was cobbled together by the Church from a lots of older writings and what we have was fought over (bloodily at times) and is as political and tuned to cement Church power as it is inspired - likely much more so. So what exactly do you think is gained by quoting scripture or other believers to those of us who disagree that there is any rational basis for your position?

The informational model of physics in no way supports your plain dogmatic assertion that somehow this Jesus person is Christ which is the information of the entire universe. This is pure mysticism.

I have no more time for this nonsense. If it please you to believe these things then I am happy for you. But if you want a future fit spirituality you have to do much better than this. What of other faiths btw? Vedanta and other Eastern religious philosophies are much deeper intellectually and wiser imho than Christian theology. But I would suppose you would tell them they have to be Christian if they really want to be both transhumanist and spiritual.

Frankly the depth of your theology and thinking seems quite shallow to me.

The Pope is just stating fact Samantha. In Christo...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:53:27 -0700

The Pope is just stating fact Samantha. In Christology, the conception that the Christ is the Logos, the Greek for "word", "wisdom" or "reason" has been important in establishing the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ and his position as God the Son in the Trinity as set forth in the Creed.
The conception derives from the opening of the Gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Philo wrote; “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated”

Then add to that revelations in cutting edge pyhsics, that the world down to subatomic particles is essentially information, then you can see Christianity, and Transhumanism (which professes to be rational and science based) must converge. Look up digital physics and then christian logos on wikipedia.

Remember, Jesus called himself the son of man. Yes...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:38:04 -0700

Remember, Jesus called himself the son of man. Yes he is post human and this does not diminish him...Tracking back origins of two different systems is a way of converging them. That is is going to happen as we grow in understanding and start the process of reconciliation. Looking back to the first century is a good place to start.
Irenaeus of Lyons The early anti-Gnostic theologian called salvation recapitulation. He was pointing to Ephesians 1.10 which speaks of all things in heaven and earth being gathered up in Christ." "It means that the development which was broken in Adam is resumed by Christ and fulfilled in him. In Christ the new mankind has started. That which mankind was to become... However, not only mankind but the whole cosmos finds its fulfillment in Christ." The great theologian Paul Tillich calls this idea "The profound doctrine of a transcendent humanism, a humanism which says that Christ is the fulfillment of essential man, of the Adamic nature." "And we can become fully human through participation in this full humanity which has appeared in Christ. This includes eternal life, and similitude with God with respect to participation in infinity." Then Tillich says, "I am always surprised how much better the theology of the ancient church was than the popular theology which developed in the nineteenth century, how much profounder and more adequate to the paradox of Christianity, without becoming irrationalistic, nonsensical, or absurd." We got lost Samantha, but recent developments are making it clear where we are to go.
The sentence you don’t think follows in the slightest is refering to the fact that the vast majority of philosophers and scientists and theologians believe the world is knowable or rational. Then remember the Nicean Creed : I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. (rational and knowable)

About Love: Love is important to Christianity, jus...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:05:09 -0700

About Love: Love is important to Christianity, just as connectivity is important to Transhumanism. Aldous Huxley makes the connection beautifully in his book the Perennial Philosophy. Huxley says; "We can only love what we know, and we can never know completely what we do not love. Love is a mode of knowledge, and when the love is sufficiently disinterested and sufficiently intense, the knowledge becomes unitive knowledge and so takes on the quality of infallibility." A techie would say. For this I need a fast processor with a noiseless fast connection. I need large bandwidth, and many gigabytes of stable memory. This is the geeks holy grail. God bless them. In a spiritual sense the pure attention of selfless love provides this flow-of-word-to-understanding.
Christian Transhumanists would use transformative technologies in the way of the Holy Spirit. They look at love this way: Technically, love can be seen as the process of connecting. The product of the love process is understanding. If the process is efficient and sustained, understanding increases exponentially. Peace allows unwavering attention so that the love process can establish a clear connection. At the heart of the process; symbols, words, and feelings are ordered into meaning. Forgiveness is important to spiritual growth because it establishes an exhaust for misunderstanding and disorder. Put this all together and you have The Perfect State of Mind.

A broader understanding of love can unite secular and religious social capital upon the same ambition. When these great efforts converge you can expect accelerating returns. The win is the cognitive high ground and universal creative capactity that comes with it.

Tracking back origins of two different systems see...

samantha at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:14:13 -0700

Tracking back origins of two different systems seems like a transparent attempt to claim some of the esteem one is held in for the other. I have no patience for what some claimed High Church authority has decreed. Show me a sound argument rather than quoting such sources. The rest of your argument strongly implies that what you call "God" is a very advanced posthuman intelligence, nothing more or less. Do you agree with that?

Your final concluding sentence does not follow in the slightest. You will have to do much better than this.

How do you know that "His Love" is the winning str...

samantha at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:09:32 -0700

How do you know that "His Love" is the winning strategy? Is it an unquestioned matter of faith? If not exactly what would such love consist of and why exactly is this the win?

Science and christianity actually originate from t...

James McLean Ledford at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:44:31 -0700

Science and christianity actually originate from the same philosophical system; Greek Philosophy. Christianity is the religion of the Logos. It is faith in the in the Creator Spirit, from which comes everything that exists, according to Pope Benedict the XVI. Church Fathers see humanity becoming full participators in this through Christ. In the process of theosis, the messiah leads us up to heavenly participation in the creation. Now, secular Transhumanist think of becoming "Posthuman" creators. According to leading Transhumanists like Oxford Philosopher Nick Bostrom, we are most likely living in a world created by super-intelligent Posthumans who will use advanced super-computers to run ancestor-simulations. Posthumans eventually learn to create their own virtual space-time like we would set up an aquarium today. Science supports this possibility. Many physicists believe our universe and the matter in which we are made is at its deepest level, information. Logos is at the heart of physics, just as information is at the heart of a computer. Some go so far as to conclude intelligence controls the information-processing system we call the universe.
So christianity is fundamental to rational thought and reality.

You fail to address the most fundamental question ...

Joseph at christian-transhumanism.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:30:35 -0700

You fail to address the most fundamental question regarding the intersection of Transhumanism and Christianity. Transhumanism is based on rational thought (the idea that humans should use their technology to improve themselves beyond the boundaries of human biological limits), while Christianity is based on irrational faith (that some omnipotent being is concerned the the most minute aspects of individual lives, and has set up a system of rewards and punishments for those who obey a set of rules that are not only self-contradictory, but impossible to verify as inherently desirable through observation and deduction).

How do you propose to reconcile the two?

來給你加油,幫你推一下喔~期待你的下一個更新,謝謝............................

佳張張張張燕張張張張張 at cosmistmanifesto.blogspot.com — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:52:17 -0700

來給你加油,幫你推一下喔~期待你的下一個更新,謝謝............................................................